> I’ve seen generations grow up. Some grandparents come in with their grandkids and say, “Anna, remember the jukebox?”
> Today, however, young people no longer come to the bar. They came when we had the dance floor and the music. Today, they like to spend time with the smartphone; they even take it to bed when they go to sleep.
What are we losing, what are we taking away from life, now that we ourselves have become a resource to extract. Probably, a lot.
> Today, [young people] like to spend time with the smartphone; they even take it to bed when they go to sleep.
Recently my parents (in their mid-60ies) were visiting us. At some point I realized that both of them had been quietly sitting at our dinner table for over on hour, eyes glued on their smartphones. They are massively addicted. I have noticed that they get nervous as soon as the smartphone is out of reach, or even in silent mode. They mostly talk to friends via Whatsapp and are in constant fear that they miss out on something or that these friends (which also seem to spend most of their days on Whatsapp) will be offended if they don't reply within 5 minutes to the latest Whatsapp trivia. It is quite a struggle to even get them to turn off their phones when we are having dinner. The Whatsapp messages just keep coming in. My wife recently learned that her mother mostly spends her evenings with posting photos of her life on social media, and broke off contact with her brothers for a few days because they failed to quickly and enthusiastically react to some photos she posted on a family Whatsapp group.
But I guess for Anna Possi, our parents are "young people" and could be her grandchildren...
I agree with you, the infection hit quite a lot of older people very hard as well. I have problem getting some 40somethings to meet in person, even in professional contexts, they are just so soaked in a WhatsApp maelström of utterly irrelevant messages that they are conditioned to answer NOW!
That said, the core of the message should not be judgments between the young and the old, but the problem that we have introduced digital fentanyl into our pockets.
You're right, as is your parent comment, in saying that this isn't something only the young suffer from. In fact it's everywhere; the people with the worst smartphone addictions near me personally are an 11 year old and a 70 year old...
That said the message, when taken as a general progression between how life was then and how it is now, stands.
The same thing happened with TV in the 80s/90s. It will eventually fix itself, Gen Alfa will grow tired of smartphones when they will be in their thirties, I'm pretty sure.
(that doesn't mean that there should not be active campaigning to point out the risks of smartphone addiction)
It seems we (America) are in some kind of “middle”, or at least a phase change in a larger wave of the addiction cycle, with different stages affecting different generations and countries based on arrival of what can be described as the addiction dealers, “Big American social media”. It reminds me of the effects of the crack epidemic rippling through different generations differently from the late 70s to this very day still.
I don’t have hard data to substantiate it and my theory is based on anecdotal conversations but it seems, e.g., where there is some recovery going on amidst something like American millennials, who have both dealt with their own addiction and were the first generation that is also dealing with the neglect of addicted parents, they are also to some degree recovering (“reparenting” themselves), to some degree probably also spurred on by realizations shot the deleterious effects of phones and SM that come from exhaustion and different life stages. On the other hand, other generations of Americans, like those now elderly parents of millennials, not only are still, but increasing number of them are entering the earlier stages of “phone addiction” (which encompasses many different things), with the most tragic part being that they are in the latter quarter of their life and are unlikely to even realize, let alone recover from the addiction.
I also see this cycle and these stages emerging in other western societies in particular. My theory is that it is a particular effect or amplifier of the underlying culture to some degree, i.e., adoption, degree, impacts. It seems particularly pernicious in America because the underlying culture (if you can call it that, after decades of it being poisoned and corrupted by corporations and the government) was and is fertile ground for the societal rot caused by social media and its amplifier, smart phones, to have taken hold and spread like the virus it is.
It was even all described as “viral”, and yet we still engaged in it as if unfamiliar and investigated viruses spreading in an uncontrolled manner are a perfectly acceptable thing that should not even give anyone pause, especially if money can be made, regardless of whether it is something like HIV, with a very long lead-time, a delayed ETA for the reaper.
What happens now that we are in some kind of middle stage of the “smartphone“/Social Media civilization wildfire, with the first to have been affected looking over the devastation it has left in their wake, Shell shocked by the neglect and destruction, as the inferno is still raging on off in the distance as it consumes their parents and new generations, and even toppling whole countries through the “Color Revolution” playbook?
English has ae in Maelstrom but the contemporary word in Danish, Swedish and Norwegian is Malstrøm/Malström. I wonder when it lost it's ae, I see Mahlströmn from 1698, reading the etymology it says dutch but I wonder if they just wrote it down first. Everything about the sea is always filled with mythology.
I think social media needs a less poetic word though.
I have recently moved into a new accomodation, and my neighbour is an elderly Italian lady in her mid 80s. Our first conversation was about how estranged she feels nowadays that everyone around her, young people but also middle-aged adults, are unable to connect not only with strangers but also among each other, filling every minute of their lives with a smartphone. Even the doctor's waiting room or Sunday mass doesn't feel the same, and she has to force people to snap out of it and just put the bloody phone down. She asked me how did I cope. I said I didn't, really.
We had a beautiful conversation about that as it is a topic that I think about a lot, yet whenever I breach it with any "adult" (millennial or older) the response I get is either a shrug, or denial. Weirdly enough, it is an easier topic to discuss with the younger generations, those that have grown up in the YouTube era, yet deep inside feel there is something crucial that's gone lost in our society and we haven't even started trying to recapture it.
I have always believed the millennial generation to be the only one to do something about it, as it sits right between the major societal upheaval the internet has brought. The older generations are lost to Facebook and inertia, the younger have never even seen the world of before.
And he would've been right. Any new advancement in technology brings societal change, and it is possible to reach a point of diminishing return, where the bad sides outweigh the positives.
I wish we could, as a society, have a serious conversation about this effect without resorting to name calling ("Luddist nonsense") and straw men ("but what about penicillin?")
Second that. I see that as a failure of society or democracy as a whole - that we are no longer able to have that broad, public conversation and act accordingly. Why should every "innovation" be shoved down our throats, if we don't want to?
When ever in the history of the world were humans not exploited by other humans, in much worse ways than now? I'd rather be google's data source for ads than be someones actual slave for example.
Also I don't really like these luddite sentiments, usually shared between the two extremes, old ladies that never used the internet so they don't understand what they are missing, and IT guys that are too jaded to see the benefits and are at the stage of "wanna become goat farmer". Outside addiction the internet is great.
She's vividly awaken with an active mind at 101 yo, it's not a thing for everyone. We try to fix the body decadence problem with technology while ancient seems already discovered it. You can see it in her words and her lifestyle; a simple life, a helpful work, a community that makes you feel appreciated for what you do. All the rest doesn't really matter for longevity.
Btw, the woman is addressing the interviewer using "her", which is a common form of respect, for a person probably half her age.
many people living simple fulfilling lives die much earlier, it's more an exception than the rule (I don't argue that those things doesn't help, just that they alone is not the reason for long healthy life)
I have a pet theory that classical musicians overindex on longevity, and I believe that the fulfilment and community aspects are contributors to their longevity.
No evidence and probably full of bias but seems intuitive enough
I talked with a barista that had worked 10 years at Starbucks and he still made minimum wage after all that time, it was specially worrying since minimum wage in this country it's equivalent to 420 usd a month.
I was thinking about robotic baristas the other day and how you might save on costs but you give up so much; If I’m going out for coffee I prefer places where I know the baristas so I get to feel like a part of my community.
There are a couple stores around me run by small families, and honestly sometimes I feel like I'm halfway to being part of their family when I visit. They recognize me, greet me by name, and start firing up my order right away. Or they ask me how I'm doing and I do the same, but it goes deeper than "good, you?" - I'm learning currently about how one dude is trying a year living together with his ex again. I'm praying for 'em every day pretty much. We share recipes, stores, etc.
We will rue every decision we make to remove humans from interactions imo.
Coffee vending machines? That’s what’s inside the box, it’s nothing new really… There are very high quality ones too. It’s not a particularly skilled job for a human to do, besides the customer service aspect of course, perhaps I am ignorant in that regard.
Indeed, coming from Spain, I don’t really see the lady as a barista, she is the classic bartender that listens to you and knows everybody. Except the bar is open throughout the day, is family friendly, sells all kinds besides alcohol (breakfast, coffee, tobacco, lunch, dinner, newspapers, lottery tickets, snacks and sweets…), and generally acts as the social nexus of the neighborhood. These old school small bars are everywhere in southern EU. Within that context it is less surprising that she would stay working there as long as she physically could.
I am also Spanish, living in Japan, and our bars is one the things I miss the most. Seriously, you don't realize how amazing Spanish bars are until you don't have them.
Here I just stop by a konbini, grab a can coffee and a plastic-wrapped sandwich, and off I go. There is no social nexus, and no neighbourhood for that matter. It's depressing.
I feel like there are definitely two types of people that are after coffee - the morning commute people that need caffeine, and just want it fast. They'd not notice a machine doing it for them (and a lot of them would have a machine at home!)
The other group is like you and I, where we like engaging with the community.
I suppose three - the Starbucks crew that do it for 'likes'.
The Italian morning caffè ritual is already extremely fast: the barista works at the speed of light and the coffee you get is pretty standard, but in exchange you get a moment to rub shoulders "al banco" with others like you about to go into work, or elders just getting out of the house, a mother taking her kid to school, a policeman taking a break. You say hi to the same few people you've been seeing at the establishment for years. It's familiar and heartwarming.
It's a sprinkling of human connection as you start your day. A small homage to the tradition of coffee culture. Your grandparents did it, your parents did it, you did it, your kids will do it, etc. You rejoice in knowing that, as everything else changes around you, maybe this one minuscule secular ritual will stand the test of time and provide a symbolic sense of continuity with the past.
I have a feeling that most people imagine this. But this doesn’t sound like on the ground reality for me? Here in Tokyo, most people I’ve seen just grab brewed coffee or the usual espresso drinks and go on with their lives. When I lives in Toronto/Vancouver, that’s what I experienced over there as well. Used to frequent one down the street as it was the cheapest brewed available coffee, and the regulars would always order their normal cups to go.
It’s interesting to see these type of generalizations that I never experience in life. I’m not saying there’s no truth to it, as girls in my circles often talk about “oh, it’s PSL season, I wanna go!”. But it’s hard to believe that all of their customers go for the special drinks.
I've never seen this either. I'm just interpreting what I think OP meant.
I used to live in Seoul, and new special food or drink items definitely would cause fad waves and would appear on Instagram feeds (Seoul is notorious for this), but I doubt it was the major parts of Starbucks' business.
I think group 3 is a bit of a reach. Most people just treat it as a commodity. You need a break after shopping? Coffee. Meeting someone to talk over something for 30 minutes? Coffee. Need a cozy place to sit and get some work done? Coffee. For none of these do people have to engage with the community or be caffeine addicts.
Robotic baristas - I'm assuming the OP is referring to those 6dof robot arm deployments - are largely novelty or luxury items meant to catch attention. You either see them in touristy areas trying to attract the Instagram crowd, or (increasingly now, after the novelty is starting to wear of) in corporate lobbies trying to impress.
I used to feel the same way, but, then I find it weird that the barista has to be there. I get the sense that some people use them almost like a free therapist since they have a captive audience.
It's an interesting sidebar discussion what are cultural norms on social interaction vs using someone like a free therapist. I guess consent to whatever topic, equal airtime, not saying inappropriate things, not slowing down their work.
> I was thinking about robotic baristas the other day and how you might save on costs but you give up so much...
How do they save costs?
Their operating cost doesn't beat gas station coffee, and the margins needed to service them end up pricing them the same as human barista coffee.
Automation only works if it helps reduce your COGS, not increase it, and for a product like coffee with already paper thin margins, the cost of servicing a robotic barista ends up not being much different from hiring 2-3 part time baristas while providing a subpar product.
Russia seems poised to invade Europe in the near future. If they do, and succeed, Rome could become part of the new Soviet Union(which Putin has explicitly said he wants to bring back)
Once that happens, it's likely to lead to poverty. At least that's what happened in the last USSR
Russia is neither poor nor failing, and saying that is underestimating the real actual danger they present.
Russia has vast natural resources and enough buyers for those resources even if the EU manages to completely stop (at significant cost). Their industry turned to wartime mode, resulting in the fact that they now have more armored vehicles than in February 2022.
Will they actually physically reach Italy? Probably not. Will they try to buy it out and bring a (even more) fascist autocratic regime there? Probably yes.
>Russia seems poised to invade Europe in the near future
only if the near future includes the year 2150 because as of right now the Russian defense ministry is celebrating the liberation of individual bakery plants on their state media
Russia’s kleptocracy has impoverished the country so much that it now needs attrition in its male population to keep people from rising up against the current leadership. War is how you keep poor citizens from rebelling against you. When the war is over, historically the returning soldiers (especially in Russia) overturn the leadership. So there is never an incentive to stop a war. Especially a losing one.
The fact that it's a fragile kleptocracy basically reduce to 0 any possibility of a normal future. Puppet state at best, if someone is willing to take them. I expect they already planned what to do with the returning soldiers, not that they will like it or accept gracefully what's in store for them.
Working past a 100 is a dream of mine (The barista in the article is 101). I don't think too many people are fond of images of old age in the Western popular zeitgeist - care homes, infirmity, increasing disability.
I hope we can cultivate more 'blue zones' across the Planet, such as in Japan and around the Mediterranean. We have the capability to do so.
Personally, if I could stop working tomorrow I would. I have nothing against work, but I do feel that most jobs aren't particularly meaningful, and so they act as a pacifier that fills in our time so we don't need to confront the question of: what do we do with our time?
She reminds me of the old people managing their crumbling shops in Japan that are popular on youtube. Being still able to work is nice, as long as you are not forced to just to survive.
I always think that I would hate to work into my old age, but it's different for some. I can't speak to what Anna's financial situation is like, but the way she talks about her work as part of the community and a way to stay active and independent makes me think that she's content, and that's great. She certainly seems like she's doing well for 101!
It's the same reason you see barbers working well into their 70s.
After a lifetime offering a service to your neighbourhood, cutting hair and having a chat, why would you even retire? Just to stare at a wall, useless and lonely?
If the pensions in Italy are anything like in Spain, she’s making more money off it than young people are making working. Plus she’s probably defrauding the pension system by both collecting her pension and working.
I have an uncle that is extremely old and until a year and a half ago he was still working. But he needed a car for his job and he decided that he's going to get rid of the car before he ends someone else's life and so he had to give up his job too. He's a super nice character, has a great sense of humor and in general is probably one of the most fun and optimistic people that I know. He'd be working still if not for the car and I know that the loss of the job and a chunk of his independence is hard for him. But he does not let it get him down for long, just finds new things to do (he's currently studying bridge like his life depends on it).
I can’t imagine I’d ever stop programming as long as I’m mentally and physically capable of it. That doesn’t mean I’d work until I drop, because I can always do hobby projects for myself instead. Being a hobby barista probably doesn’t work quite the same way.
For most people, it proves very disorienting to not be doing something constructive for others, and in a capitalist world, where everything easily becomes transactional and people get a little isolated from deeper community and family, it's kind of organic for that drive to be fulfilled by continuing to work in old age. Lots of people do it by choice.
If you feel like you might be on that road, the smart trick is to start thinking early about what kind of work you might want to take up during that stage and plant the seeds for it early.
Some people don't have a lot of choice to prepare, and just end up falling into being barista because the job is there and they find they enjoy it. But the other barista at that same cafe might be the owner who bought it as their own "retirement", filling shifts when they want to, while giving the neighborhood a place to gather.
Not every culture or community is built so centrally around atomization and transactionality as the prevailing one is. But those things represent the essence of what capitalism is, and are central to what it aspires to acheive. It works its magic when people can negotiate their relationships through currency and through accounts measured against it, and so a society that means to participate in it is one that tends to engender payment, quantified barter, and unburdened individuality over alternatives like filial concern or community enrichment.
It's not really a controversial thing to suggest, and wasn't there to be accusatory or something. It's the world we live in.
Not only is not controversial but one of the bases of Marxist critique of capitalism is the concept of alienation, which not even the staunchest defenders of capitalism deny.
> Today, [young people] like to spend time with the smartphone; they even take it to bed when they go to sleep.
Recently my parents (in their mid-60ies) were visiting us. At some point I realized that both of them had been quietly sitting at our dinner table for over on hour, eyes glued on their smartphones. They are massively addicted. I have noticed that they get nervous as soon as the smartphone is out of reach, or even in silent mode. They mostly talk to friends via Whatsapp and are in constant fear that they miss out on something or that these friends (which also seem to spend most of their days on Whatsapp) will be offended if they don't reply within 5 minutes to the latest Whatsapp trivia. It is quite a struggle to even get them to turn off their phones when we are having dinner. The Whatsapp messages just keep coming in. My wife recently learned that her mother mostly spends her evenings with posting photos of her life on social media, and broke off contact with her brothers for a few days because they failed to quickly and enthusiastically react to some photos she posted on a family Whatsapp group.
But I guess for Anna Possi, our parents are "young people" and could be her grandchildren...
I agree with you, the infection hit quite a lot of older people very hard as well. I have problem getting some 40somethings to meet in person, even in professional contexts, they are just so soaked in a WhatsApp maelström of utterly irrelevant messages that they are conditioned to answer NOW!
That said, the core of the message should not be judgments between the young and the old, but the problem that we have introduced digital fentanyl into our pockets.
You're right, as is your parent comment, in saying that this isn't something only the young suffer from. In fact it's everywhere; the people with the worst smartphone addictions near me personally are an 11 year old and a 70 year old...
That said the message, when taken as a general progression between how life was then and how it is now, stands.
The same thing happened with TV in the 80s/90s. It will eventually fix itself, Gen Alfa will grow tired of smartphones when they will be in their thirties, I'm pretty sure. (that doesn't mean that there should not be active campaigning to point out the risks of smartphone addiction)
It seems we (America) are in some kind of “middle”, or at least a phase change in a larger wave of the addiction cycle, with different stages affecting different generations and countries based on arrival of what can be described as the addiction dealers, “Big American social media”. It reminds me of the effects of the crack epidemic rippling through different generations differently from the late 70s to this very day still.
I don’t have hard data to substantiate it and my theory is based on anecdotal conversations but it seems, e.g., where there is some recovery going on amidst something like American millennials, who have both dealt with their own addiction and were the first generation that is also dealing with the neglect of addicted parents, they are also to some degree recovering (“reparenting” themselves), to some degree probably also spurred on by realizations shot the deleterious effects of phones and SM that come from exhaustion and different life stages. On the other hand, other generations of Americans, like those now elderly parents of millennials, not only are still, but increasing number of them are entering the earlier stages of “phone addiction” (which encompasses many different things), with the most tragic part being that they are in the latter quarter of their life and are unlikely to even realize, let alone recover from the addiction.
I also see this cycle and these stages emerging in other western societies in particular. My theory is that it is a particular effect or amplifier of the underlying culture to some degree, i.e., adoption, degree, impacts. It seems particularly pernicious in America because the underlying culture (if you can call it that, after decades of it being poisoned and corrupted by corporations and the government) was and is fertile ground for the societal rot caused by social media and its amplifier, smart phones, to have taken hold and spread like the virus it is.
It was even all described as “viral”, and yet we still engaged in it as if unfamiliar and investigated viruses spreading in an uncontrolled manner are a perfectly acceptable thing that should not even give anyone pause, especially if money can be made, regardless of whether it is something like HIV, with a very long lead-time, a delayed ETA for the reaper.
What happens now that we are in some kind of middle stage of the “smartphone“/Social Media civilization wildfire, with the first to have been affected looking over the devastation it has left in their wake, Shell shocked by the neglect and destruction, as the inferno is still raging on off in the distance as it consumes their parents and new generations, and even toppling whole countries through the “Color Revolution” playbook?
> maelström
Good use of that word.
English has ae in Maelstrom but the contemporary word in Danish, Swedish and Norwegian is Malstrøm/Malström. I wonder when it lost it's ae, I see Mahlströmn from 1698, reading the etymology it says dutch but I wonder if they just wrote it down first. Everything about the sea is always filled with mythology.
I think social media needs a less poetic word though.
I have recently moved into a new accomodation, and my neighbour is an elderly Italian lady in her mid 80s. Our first conversation was about how estranged she feels nowadays that everyone around her, young people but also middle-aged adults, are unable to connect not only with strangers but also among each other, filling every minute of their lives with a smartphone. Even the doctor's waiting room or Sunday mass doesn't feel the same, and she has to force people to snap out of it and just put the bloody phone down. She asked me how did I cope. I said I didn't, really.
We had a beautiful conversation about that as it is a topic that I think about a lot, yet whenever I breach it with any "adult" (millennial or older) the response I get is either a shrug, or denial. Weirdly enough, it is an easier topic to discuss with the younger generations, those that have grown up in the YouTube era, yet deep inside feel there is something crucial that's gone lost in our society and we haven't even started trying to recapture it.
I have always believed the millennial generation to be the only one to do something about it, as it sits right between the major societal upheaval the internet has brought. The older generations are lost to Facebook and inertia, the younger have never even seen the world of before.
> What are we losing, what are we taking away from life, now that we ourselves have become a resource to extract. Probably, a lot.
Beautifully said. And sad.
Socrates would have drawn the line at writing and reading texts.
And he would've been right. Any new advancement in technology brings societal change, and it is possible to reach a point of diminishing return, where the bad sides outweigh the positives.
I wish we could, as a society, have a serious conversation about this effect without resorting to name calling ("Luddist nonsense") and straw men ("but what about penicillin?")
Second that. I see that as a failure of society or democracy as a whole - that we are no longer able to have that broad, public conversation and act accordingly. Why should every "innovation" be shoved down our throats, if we don't want to?
When ever in the history of the world were humans not exploited by other humans, in much worse ways than now? I'd rather be google's data source for ads than be someones actual slave for example.
Also I don't really like these luddite sentiments, usually shared between the two extremes, old ladies that never used the internet so they don't understand what they are missing, and IT guys that are too jaded to see the benefits and are at the stage of "wanna become goat farmer". Outside addiction the internet is great.
"Outside addiction the internet is great."
So are painkillers, or alcohol. Still we shouldn't simply shrug our shoulders over their abuse.
We need to find a rational way to treat smartphones. As of now, we are fully in the Gin Craze [0] phase of their use and moderation is badly needed.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gin_Craze
Are we the bad guys?
If you have to ask?
She's vividly awaken with an active mind at 101 yo, it's not a thing for everyone. We try to fix the body decadence problem with technology while ancient seems already discovered it. You can see it in her words and her lifestyle; a simple life, a helpful work, a community that makes you feel appreciated for what you do. All the rest doesn't really matter for longevity.
Btw, the woman is addressing the interviewer using "her", which is a common form of respect, for a person probably half her age.
many people living simple fulfilling lives die much earlier, it's more an exception than the rule (I don't argue that those things doesn't help, just that they alone is not the reason for long healthy life)
I have a pet theory that classical musicians overindex on longevity, and I believe that the fulfilment and community aspects are contributors to their longevity.
No evidence and probably full of bias but seems intuitive enough
I talked with a barista that had worked 10 years at Starbucks and he still made minimum wage after all that time, it was specially worrying since minimum wage in this country it's equivalent to 420 usd a month.
I was thinking about robotic baristas the other day and how you might save on costs but you give up so much; If I’m going out for coffee I prefer places where I know the baristas so I get to feel like a part of my community.
There are a couple stores around me run by small families, and honestly sometimes I feel like I'm halfway to being part of their family when I visit. They recognize me, greet me by name, and start firing up my order right away. Or they ask me how I'm doing and I do the same, but it goes deeper than "good, you?" - I'm learning currently about how one dude is trying a year living together with his ex again. I'm praying for 'em every day pretty much. We share recipes, stores, etc.
We will rue every decision we make to remove humans from interactions imo.
> robotic baristas
Coffee vending machines? That’s what’s inside the box, it’s nothing new really… There are very high quality ones too. It’s not a particularly skilled job for a human to do, besides the customer service aspect of course, perhaps I am ignorant in that regard.
Indeed, coming from Spain, I don’t really see the lady as a barista, she is the classic bartender that listens to you and knows everybody. Except the bar is open throughout the day, is family friendly, sells all kinds besides alcohol (breakfast, coffee, tobacco, lunch, dinner, newspapers, lottery tickets, snacks and sweets…), and generally acts as the social nexus of the neighborhood. These old school small bars are everywhere in southern EU. Within that context it is less surprising that she would stay working there as long as she physically could.
I am also Spanish, living in Japan, and our bars is one the things I miss the most. Seriously, you don't realize how amazing Spanish bars are until you don't have them.
Here I just stop by a konbini, grab a can coffee and a plastic-wrapped sandwich, and off I go. There is no social nexus, and no neighbourhood for that matter. It's depressing.
Weren't the Izakaya's close to a Spanish bar?
I feel like there are definitely two types of people that are after coffee - the morning commute people that need caffeine, and just want it fast. They'd not notice a machine doing it for them (and a lot of them would have a machine at home!)
The other group is like you and I, where we like engaging with the community.
I suppose three - the Starbucks crew that do it for 'likes'.
The Italian morning caffè ritual is already extremely fast: the barista works at the speed of light and the coffee you get is pretty standard, but in exchange you get a moment to rub shoulders "al banco" with others like you about to go into work, or elders just getting out of the house, a mother taking her kid to school, a policeman taking a break. You say hi to the same few people you've been seeing at the establishment for years. It's familiar and heartwarming.
It's a sprinkling of human connection as you start your day. A small homage to the tradition of coffee culture. Your grandparents did it, your parents did it, you did it, your kids will do it, etc. You rejoice in knowing that, as everything else changes around you, maybe this one minuscule secular ritual will stand the test of time and provide a symbolic sense of continuity with the past.
Part of the issue is Americans get huge drinks to go. Italy seems to have espresso available on every corner so people just stop when they want one.
I love living in Italy and being part of the local cafe ritual. It’s one of the things that drew me here.
I’m obviously out of touch. What do these starbucks people do exactly.
Order the special drink of the week/month and pose with it on socials. Think your Pumpkin Spice Latte season.
I have a feeling that most people imagine this. But this doesn’t sound like on the ground reality for me? Here in Tokyo, most people I’ve seen just grab brewed coffee or the usual espresso drinks and go on with their lives. When I lives in Toronto/Vancouver, that’s what I experienced over there as well. Used to frequent one down the street as it was the cheapest brewed available coffee, and the regulars would always order their normal cups to go.
It’s interesting to see these type of generalizations that I never experience in life. I’m not saying there’s no truth to it, as girls in my circles often talk about “oh, it’s PSL season, I wanna go!”. But it’s hard to believe that all of their customers go for the special drinks.
I've never seen this either. I'm just interpreting what I think OP meant.
I used to live in Seoul, and new special food or drink items definitely would cause fad waves and would appear on Instagram feeds (Seoul is notorious for this), but I doubt it was the major parts of Starbucks' business.
I think group 3 is a bit of a reach. Most people just treat it as a commodity. You need a break after shopping? Coffee. Meeting someone to talk over something for 30 minutes? Coffee. Need a cozy place to sit and get some work done? Coffee. For none of these do people have to engage with the community or be caffeine addicts.
Even for morning commute people who need caffeine, getting to chat with a human beats having a machine to do it.
> you might save on costs but you give up so much
Modern society, and the push to optimize every single thing that can be measured, in a nutshell.
Nobody is rolling these out to optimize anything.
Robotic baristas - I'm assuming the OP is referring to those 6dof robot arm deployments - are largely novelty or luxury items meant to catch attention. You either see them in touristy areas trying to attract the Instagram crowd, or (increasingly now, after the novelty is starting to wear of) in corporate lobbies trying to impress.
A local roasters recently opened up a cafe (again, they had one but lost their space some years ago).
Having only been there three times now, each time I've gotten into long conversations about technique and equipment with the baristas.
Is it possible to have a robot pour as good a filter or pull as good a shot? Probably. But I don't go to cafés just for that.
I used to feel the same way, but, then I find it weird that the barista has to be there. I get the sense that some people use them almost like a free therapist since they have a captive audience.
It's an interesting sidebar discussion what are cultural norms on social interaction vs using someone like a free therapist. I guess consent to whatever topic, equal airtime, not saying inappropriate things, not slowing down their work.
At that point just make your coffee at home.
> I was thinking about robotic baristas the other day and how you might save on costs but you give up so much...
How do they save costs?
Their operating cost doesn't beat gas station coffee, and the margins needed to service them end up pricing them the same as human barista coffee.
Automation only works if it helps reduce your COGS, not increase it, and for a product like coffee with already paper thin margins, the cost of servicing a robotic barista ends up not being much different from hiring 2-3 part time baristas while providing a subpar product.
This is right, coffee is a lot about people and interaction. It's about being around people.
This is very near my hometown (Nebbiuno; I am from Verbania).
Lots of very old people here. The world's oldest lady used to be from Verbania, she died at 117.
Northern Italy is less loud than southern Italy but it has a quiet beauty.
Always love reading interviews with Italy's youth ;)
Great interview with this Australian who's almost a teen ... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45487077
Thanks for the SensibleChuckle (Bit of Aussie humour there haha)
Hello fellow reader?
Our dogs devour every issue: https://i.imgur.com/P80uqLB.jpeg
https://archive.is/D6o9S
Between the lines you can hear the eulogy for a healthy economy and dense social network which have, now, mostly rotted away.
> I tell my granddaughters: work, save, don’t depend on anyone. The world is getting harder.
This woman lived through fascist Italy and everything that came after, and then says this about the way the world is going.
Reading the writing on the wall perhaps.
In Soviet Russia, Rome is a poor city I guess
Sorry, I don't quite understand what this means, can you help?
Russia seems poised to invade Europe in the near future. If they do, and succeed, Rome could become part of the new Soviet Union(which Putin has explicitly said he wants to bring back)
Once that happens, it's likely to lead to poverty. At least that's what happened in the last USSR
Invade with what? Refugees running away from a poor and failing country? Man...
Russia is neither poor nor failing, and saying that is underestimating the real actual danger they present.
Russia has vast natural resources and enough buyers for those resources even if the EU manages to completely stop (at significant cost). Their industry turned to wartime mode, resulting in the fact that they now have more armored vehicles than in February 2022.
Will they actually physically reach Italy? Probably not. Will they try to buy it out and bring a (even more) fascist autocratic regime there? Probably yes.
[dead]
>Russia seems poised to invade Europe in the near future
only if the near future includes the year 2150 because as of right now the Russian defense ministry is celebrating the liberation of individual bakery plants on their state media
https://tass.com/politics/2041223
> Russia seems poised to invade Europe in the near future. If they do, and succeed
Is this a joke? There is literally no chance this ever happens.
Russia’s kleptocracy has impoverished the country so much that it now needs attrition in its male population to keep people from rising up against the current leadership. War is how you keep poor citizens from rebelling against you. When the war is over, historically the returning soldiers (especially in Russia) overturn the leadership. So there is never an incentive to stop a war. Especially a losing one.
The fact that it's a fragile kleptocracy basically reduce to 0 any possibility of a normal future. Puppet state at best, if someone is willing to take them. I expect they already planned what to do with the returning soldiers, not that they will like it or accept gracefully what's in store for them.
China will buy Siberia. No shots fired.
Eyes wide shut in the west still.
Working past a 100 is a dream of mine (The barista in the article is 101). I don't think too many people are fond of images of old age in the Western popular zeitgeist - care homes, infirmity, increasing disability.
I hope we can cultivate more 'blue zones' across the Planet, such as in Japan and around the Mediterranean. We have the capability to do so.
I'm not sold on the whole blue zone thing... here is an HN discussion on a paper refuting some of the claims that won an Ig Nobel prize last year:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41738434
Personally, if I could stop working tomorrow I would. I have nothing against work, but I do feel that most jobs aren't particularly meaningful, and so they act as a pacifier that fills in our time so we don't need to confront the question of: what do we do with our time?
I’ll never stop working for some definition of work. I will stop doing the things I don’t want to do.
I dream of the day I don’t have to work for anyone else, and I dream of the things I can create after that day comes.
She reminds me of the old people managing their crumbling shops in Japan that are popular on youtube. Being still able to work is nice, as long as you are not forced to just to survive.
Can you imagine the insights on human behaviour that she has had?
I wonder what happened to the dance floor. It appears at some point, and then apparently it disappears again too, because the youth stop coming.
God damn!
I always think that I would hate to work into my old age, but it's different for some. I can't speak to what Anna's financial situation is like, but the way she talks about her work as part of the community and a way to stay active and independent makes me think that she's content, and that's great. She certainly seems like she's doing well for 101!
Working for a larger soul sucking corporation that long would be spiritually crushing.
But serving your community coffee every day seems like a great way to stay involved in your community doing something useful.
It's the same reason you see barbers working well into their 70s.
After a lifetime offering a service to your neighbourhood, cutting hair and having a chat, why would you even retire? Just to stare at a wall, useless and lonely?
If the pensions in Italy are anything like in Spain, she’s making more money off it than young people are making working. Plus she’s probably defrauding the pension system by both collecting her pension and working.
Is it defrauding it if you contributed to it all your working life?
I have an uncle that is extremely old and until a year and a half ago he was still working. But he needed a car for his job and he decided that he's going to get rid of the car before he ends someone else's life and so he had to give up his job too. He's a super nice character, has a great sense of humor and in general is probably one of the most fun and optimistic people that I know. He'd be working still if not for the car and I know that the loss of the job and a chunk of his independence is hard for him. But he does not let it get him down for long, just finds new things to do (he's currently studying bridge like his life depends on it).
I can’t imagine I’d ever stop programming as long as I’m mentally and physically capable of it. That doesn’t mean I’d work until I drop, because I can always do hobby projects for myself instead. Being a hobby barista probably doesn’t work quite the same way.
For most people, it proves very disorienting to not be doing something constructive for others, and in a capitalist world, where everything easily becomes transactional and people get a little isolated from deeper community and family, it's kind of organic for that drive to be fulfilled by continuing to work in old age. Lots of people do it by choice.
If you feel like you might be on that road, the smart trick is to start thinking early about what kind of work you might want to take up during that stage and plant the seeds for it early.
Some people don't have a lot of choice to prepare, and just end up falling into being barista because the job is there and they find they enjoy it. But the other barista at that same cafe might be the owner who bought it as their own "retirement", filling shifts when they want to, while giving the neighborhood a place to gather.
>and in a capitalist world, where everything easily becomes transactional and people get a little isolated from deeper community and family,
What does this have to do with capitalism?
Huh?
Not every culture or community is built so centrally around atomization and transactionality as the prevailing one is. But those things represent the essence of what capitalism is, and are central to what it aspires to acheive. It works its magic when people can negotiate their relationships through currency and through accounts measured against it, and so a society that means to participate in it is one that tends to engender payment, quantified barter, and unburdened individuality over alternatives like filial concern or community enrichment.
It's not really a controversial thing to suggest, and wasn't there to be accusatory or something. It's the world we live in.
Not only is not controversial but one of the bases of Marxist critique of capitalism is the concept of alienation, which not even the staunchest defenders of capitalism deny.